why doesnt valve demand devs make linux builds? if microsoft changed their apis wouldnt new games just not work on proton?
Microsoft generally doesn’t worry about losing market share to Linux over games. They don’t even worry about losing desktop share for the public sector. Only businesses matter, and they have heavy vendor lock in there as Microsoft Office, Teams, and to a lesser extent, Azure, keep them subscribed/enslaved.
Microsoft also gives a shit ton of money to the Linux Foundation,along with the rest of MMAANG and many other companies. All these companies know Linux runs the back end servers, and its free for them to use however they want, and they have a vested interest in Linux being around for servers as even they are aware it’s superior for that specific purpose.
Microsoft runs the Desktop, Apple runs the phone, Google and Amazon compete for cloud, and Meta owns marketing. Sure, they sometimes compete in other spaces like Android and Azure, but those are generally the established fiefdoms.
And Linux is all of their removed, but also all of their main support beam without which nothing works.
The true underdog is BSD.
Azure and Cloud Services is over 30% of their revenue and a growing percentage of the total revenue, while their Office products and services are closer to 20% and a shrinking portion. I’d claim Azure is their largest business by a good margin.
to a lesser extent, Azure
This is their most profitable sector, by a large margin (along with 365 offerings, whatever they call it this month). Even Windows Server and Enterprise pale by comparison.
Apple runs the phone,
something like 80% of phones worldwide use Android. Maybe there are different metrics for “runs the phone”
The true underdog is BSD.
Oh, BSD runs in lots of places.
In secret. Because of the “do whatever the fuck you want” licence
Here’s the thing. You can’t demand developers to anything. Many CEOs have tried, all of them failed. As the owners of the market they’re providing, the best thing they should be doing is make it as easy as possible for devs to do whatever they want on their platform. Proton is exactly that.
More like proton makes windows binaries not dependent on windows.
Laughs in JVM (but there’s like 1 game using it so…)
Minecraft?
Mindustry (open source)
Neat, I had no idea Mindustry was open source. My roommate played a ton of the steam version.
because it has been proven time and time again that only insignificant amount of devs actually care until there’s a major adoption. Look at original Steam Machines or on NVDIA SLI or 3D TV, Apple Vision Pro, etc… these things take a lot of time and are very gradual
I don’t understand the logic. Why would Proton make Linux dependent on Windows binaries? It does not make Linux dependent, but enables to use them. I don’t see any reason why Valve should demand devs to build Linux builds (plus Valve should not demand it, it should be a decision of the developers, Valve should not have that much power in my opinion).
if microsoft changed their apis wouldnt new games just not work on proton?
The same would happen with changes in Linux. And arguably it is worse on Linux. Windows binaries have a higher chance of working through WINE or Proton, than Linux binaries in the future. Plus developers only need one binary build, instead developing for Linux and Windows. Also if Microsoft changes their API, then only games affected using the new API would be affected. And changes and additions happen all the time and the Proton / WINE devs are working all the time too.
And “Windows” games run better in Linux/Proton. It’s more like a re-implementation of a feature set, right? Like, I could see devs targeting Proton as the primary target sometime in the future. That’s kinda how some multiplatform systems work already, going all the way back (at least) to “Java apps” in the 90s. (I can’t think of any older examples off the dome, but I only got into coding in a big way in the 00s, so I’m not confident.)
This happened before Proton existed (just base wine), with some commercial software software and a few games using winebuild or paying Crossover (main developers of wine) for help packaging their software.
I think the bigger issue is making sure everything that should gets back upstream into wine for everyone to benefit
No, because proton is not Windows. Wine only works on Linux, so it’s actually a Linux platform. I consider every developer/publisher who targets proton to actually be targeting Linux, rather than windows. Every single time a windows update breaks something that continues to work on proton I laugh
See also: https://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/8/1734336452576620754/?l=czech
“Targeting proton” is another reason why I don’t take the development community at large seriously.
It’s full of dipshits all regurgitating each other’s stupidity.
I really don’t understand the reasoning. Obviously wine works only on Linux, it converts Windows calls to Linux… And there are Windows devs targeting proton compatibility specifically?! In my opinion proton could somehow helps devs realizing that there could be a Linux market but that doesn’t go further than that.
And there are Windows devs targeting proton compatibility specifically?!
A lot of them aim for Steam Deck, so maybe not explicitly, but yeah.
Interesting, do you have any devs communication about it?
Not off the top of my head… But many games have a specific “Steam Deck” graphics setting that’s optimized for Deck, so I imagine those devs have talked about it.
Linux builds suck, they’re less well maintained than the Windows build. If Valve gave me the option to use Proton by default even when there is a native Linux build, I would enable that in a heartbeat.
I’m genuinely wondering if there is any specific game where you noticed that the Linux version was worse than the Windows version on Proton, and how you verified that the Windows version wasn’t just as bad.
I’ve just heard tales. If a game doesn’t work on Linux I just put it at the bottom of my backlog and hope it’s eventually fixed.
Baldur’s Gate 3 apparently had a Linux build that didn’t work well on anything but the Steam deck, and Left 4 Dead 2 apparently has a terrible Linux port.
L4D2’s port was great when I played it, and Valve even made a big triumphant blog post with all the benchmarks proving it worked better than the Windows binary. Maybe your confusing it with Dying Light? That native port was so incredibly trash that everyone forced Proton on to avoid it.
One example is Civilization VI, where the Linux build is several versions older than the Windows build, and one of the DLCs just silently doesn’t install unless you force Proton.
I think there already is an option to enable proton for all titles instead of doing it for every one separately.
There is but it only applies to games without Linux versions. The default behavior is to install the Linux version and, if it doesn’t exist, install the Windows version and use Proton.
In order to install the Windows version you have to check the ‘Force the use of a specific Steam Play compatibility tool’ for that specific game and click the update button to download the Windows version.
Yeah, thats kinda been my experience too. Any time a game has a linux build on steam I swear its a 50/50 if it’ll even run. I almost always end up switching to proton.
Valve is solving the chicken-and-egg problem. For a developer, it is costly to maintain a separate build for Linux without the consumer base to justify the effort. And without games, most people will not leave windows.
Proton offers Valve independence from windows without effort and cost for the developers. And without penalties for the gamers as well.
For a developer, it is costly to maintain a separate build for Linux without the consumer base to justify the effort.
Only if you’re a bad developer or using bad tools!
I encourage everyone who thinks “it’s too difficult or costly” to see for themselves before believing the people taking them for a ride!
Would be pretty funny if Valve demanded that, but I don’t see it happening.
It’s really up to users and developers to grow some balls and stop suckling the corporate teat.
I expect that others will add more, but the unfortunate reality is that counterintuitively, games running on proton often run and work better than Linux native builds. I don’t fully understand why, but ironically demanding Linux native builds as they presently exist would be a step backward. To answer your original question: no, this doesn’t make anything Linux dependent on anything Windows. Maybe proton is somewhat dependent upon presently existing things in Windows, but proton is the only thing that would break if Windows somehow radically altered the basics of Windows (but I think that would also break backwards compatibility with older Windows software)
It would be absolutely hilarious if in the very long term Proton or other Win32 compatibility layers just become a generic set of libraries that most games rely on for historical reasons despite every reason for their existence no longer applying
No offence but Microsoft is the king of backwards compatibility. Them changing their API is a lot less likely the Linux. I have old windows games I can still play but I can’t play my old Loki games.
I haven’t kept up with wine development in many years, but they used to have (and might still) winelib, which allowed you to compile a window app against it to create a native linux binary.
And old ones wouldn’t work on windows…
Honestly I feel like it’s better for Devs to have a single endpoint of optimisation, and the proton translates that into proper Linux optimisation.
Most of the times a game has a Linux client I need to manually activate compatibility because it’s either not that well supported or the proton version just works better.
At this point, I prefer for Devs to optimise the windows game for proton than to make a Linux version.
I love it when the Linux clients don’t support the windows clients saves.
Civ 6 is the worst for this. IIRC for a while you couldn’t do multiplayer between native Linux and Windows
It’s interesting to read you guys discussing proton. I’m getting ready for an epic Cities Skylines build, potentially the most advanced and detailed I’ve ever built. I was previously playing on Windows, but cutting it down to “gaming only” doesn’t accurately reflect how much I hate Windows. I need to eliminate it entirely.
I’ve been trying to decide if I should use the proton version or the native Linux version of Cities Skylines as both exist. This thread makes me think Proton will likely result in the most playable game. I’ve used both native and proton in the past.
That said, while most mods will work on either, there are a few that launch as separate programs and would have to be run under wine. If I launch coolmod.exe by clicking an in-game menu would it try to run it with proton like game itselfor would it just default to my OSs standard behavior (probably opening wine)?
It depends on what launcher you are using. If you’re on Heroic press the option in settings ‘run exe on wine prefix’ and you can run the mod. On steam under the game’s properties you can type in the exe file path and launch it. Hope this helps :)
If you launch it via doubleclick it will probably go via wine. Idk how I did it but the way I have configured whenever I click an exe, protontricks loads up and asks me to pick an environment for a game. This way if you pick the env assigned to cities skylines, in theory it should use the same isolated “windows files”, which should help with mods I guess.
It launches from a submenu in the game, but the exe comes from steam workshop and I think it sots in the game folder. Interesting stuff and I’m excited at all the love Linux is getting from gamers this year
